2023 Membership Trends Interview with Grype Digital

About This Episode with Grype Digital:

People have been paying recurring fees in exchange for access to the benefits your association offers. How could you be sure the price you charge is profitable?

Learn how to uncover the value you offer, conduct market research to discover expanded opportunities, attach the right price to the value your organization provides and communicate it to your audience.

Join us and our special guest Dr. Michael Tatonetti and learn all you need to know about financial sustainability for your association.

Auto-Generated Transcript:

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in general there are certain uh things that I like to look at

0:05

um that I recommend that organizations look at as well if they're going to DIY it um one thing that I like to start with

0:11

uh so kind of like a five-step process if you will that we have uh is I like to look at historical data so I like to see

0:18

what has been the consumer behavior um so very specific things if we're talking membership uh because again the

0:25

what you look at will vary a bit depending on what the product is but if we're talking membership we're talking

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um uh whether you're trade or Society so whether you're individual or organizational you know when are people

0:37

renewing if you're on a calendar or if you're on a rolling how early out um what have the pattern's been not just

0:42

in general like oh yeah we normally get 60 by this time of the year but looking pulling those companies or those

0:49

individual email addresses and seeing has that shifted has that changed by Persona by the individual even

0:56

thank you hello everyone welcome to the gripe

1:03

podcast my name is niaz and I'm the membership specialist and client success manager at crib digital in this podcast

1:11

we'll learn how to set the right pricing for Association and if this is your first time joining

1:17

any of our online event um I'll definitely go ahead and give you a bit overview about who we are so we

1:24

are gripe digital uh we build membership sites for associations and we have been doing this for the past 12 years now

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our specialty is in Association membership building member portals for associations especially in the

1:37

non-profit space basically our goal is to understand your current state learn

1:42

about your desired State and support you to fill in those gaps to reach your goals successfully

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and there are mainly two sides to our services uh firstly we do workshops to

1:54

edit your membership journey and build a strategic action plan and secondly we

1:59

build membership sites and portals for Association and we have a member engagement platform

2:04

called the member lounge with which you can take your member marketing and engagement on autopilot

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so this is a live presentation to our podcast and we do have live audiences

2:16

and if you're joining us live today I welcome everyone again um great to have you on the show we have

2:23

received some amazing questions from the audience from all the participants that we have today and if you have any

2:29

questions during the podcast during the episode please submit them on the chat and we will get to them as soon as we

2:35

can and we are really excited to have uh Dr Michael tatonity uh he's the founder and

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CEO of pricing Fair associations uh pricing and value speaker and consultant and I'm not going to butcher his

2:49

introduction anymore I'll be like Michael thank you so much for joining us today uh can you please start by telling

2:55

us a bit about yourself and your work yes yeah so first uh thank you for

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having me on Yaz I appreciate that and uh good afternoon maybe good morning if you're on the west coast but good

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afternoon good evening to everyone depending on where you are watching uh so I'm Dr Michael tansarnetti I am both

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a CAE so of course certified Association executive and also a CPP a certified

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pricing professional so I sit at that intersection of pricing and value

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strategy specifically for associations so the work that our firm does is

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working with associations across products on pricing and value strategy so that can be members ship events

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digital products sponsorship education and we work with associations on both

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current products that they need to maybe look at a price increase or look at

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retention and value propositions on or new products that they're launching and considering what is the value is this

3:55

the right angle and how do we price something brand new so we work just on pricing and value strategy and from

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there we hand it off with a roadmap and allow your marketing team to take it over for implementation and for

4:08

launching so that's the kind of work that we do and you can find out more about that at

4:14

pricingforassociations.com wonderful and Michael as I've mentioned that you work with associations to work over their

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pricing uh what would you say is the best approach that the association should take and what do you think is a

4:27

lot of associations are doing wrong at the moment yeah so I think that the um I'll

4:34

actually answer it in the reverse because I think that'll help give context I think that the biggest mistake that I'm seeing right now especially I

4:41

would say in the last six months uh definitely in the past year is that when

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the pandemic hit in 2020 uh we were definitely in response mode and we had to figure out how to move things more

4:53

digital um how to continue Revenue coming in especially since most associations have

4:58

the majority of their funding coming in from Live Events the sponsorship the attendee fees all of that so we we kind

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of did this you know pivot right even though we hate that word now but we did this pivot we figured it out but I think

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that as we moved into 2022 and we are quote unquote coming out of it the the

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problem is that we're trying to kind of get back to normal which is another word that we hate but I think that the

5:23

appetite and the expectation of our audiences both sponsors and members has changed and what I'm noticing is that I

5:30

think think many associations are looking at the price and saying okay how can we update our pricing how can we

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make more I don't think though and this is the biggest mistake I don't think enough associations are saying are we

5:42

delivering the right value and so they're trying to put the cart before the horse and in doing that I'm starting

5:48

to see a retention problem where more and more people are questioning the value sponsors are questioning the value

5:54

of participating um or maybe at the same level that they once were and members likewise are

6:00

questioning what am I you know do I really need this am I able to get it from somewhere else and so I think that

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a lot of associations are asking a great question and how do we price but what I'm practically noticing is that the

6:15

value has not been analyzed and updated there has been no real value analysis

6:21

um for your audiences and therefore you're kind of going in the wrong order so I think that what a lot of

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organizations need to do right now and this is a general statement but again

6:33

through my clients and and answering questions and all that um I'm consistently seeing that

6:39

associations need to do a proper analysis of the value that they deliver I think in 2023 and determine where are

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they going what's next what do their products look like how are they packaging them what matters and then

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figure out okay now how do we price it based on that value um so I think that just focusing on the

6:57

price alone while I love talking about the price um I I'm I'm

7:03

I I am seeing a potential uh problem with value delivery and meeting the

7:10

needs of the audiences that Association serve right right and do you do you actually

7:16

have a process of finding the True Value that someone should charge for their membership

7:21

yeah so um yeah so it's a bit complex so I'll try to do like the high level

7:26

here's what's you know here's what to do because of course it can be you know an in-depth process it's like asking like okay how do you do marketing right like

7:32

or you know how do you put on an event um in general there are certain uh

7:38

things that I like to look at um that I recommend that organizations look at as well if they're going to DIY

7:44

it um one thing that I like to start with uh so kind of like a five-step process

7:49

if you will that we have uh is I like to look at historical data so I like to see what has been the consumer behavior

7:56

um so very specific things if we're talking membership uh because again the what you look at will vary a bit

8:02

depending on what the product is but if we're talking membership we're talking um uh whether you're trade or Society so

8:10

whether you're individual or organizational you know when are people renewing if you're on a calendar or if you're on a rolling how early out

8:16

um what if the pattern's been not just in general like oh yeah we normally get 60 by this time of the year but looking

8:23

pulling those companies or those individual email addresses and seeing has that shifted has that changed by

8:29

Persona by the individual even um taking a look at what are they logging into so what are they actually

8:34

consuming if you have a bullet list of 10 different things that you offer to them what percentage are logging into

8:41

each thing or taking advantage and from there how active are they with it so let's say that you do a monthly webinar

8:48

series and it's free for members how many are attending live and then how many are watching the replay and what

8:55

percent are not even interacting with that and then can you segment them which again all this is hard work and people

9:00

go whoa whoa whoa it is a lot of work but it's important work like you know

9:06

who's actually logging in is there a particular segment that you notice that's logging in is it mostly your newer members and then they kind of

9:11

Trail off because maybe your content is redundant year over year and they feel like oh I already got it uh is it more

9:18

senior is it more those who are looking for a new career change like what are the patterns so we like to look at the

9:24

data as much as we can and try to get an idea of who's doing what historically

9:30

um the second thing then which is an optional step is doing a competitive analysis now I don't price based on

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competitors because I think that you only know what they're offering based on what their website says and similar they

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only know what you're delivering based on what your website says you may do some of that really well and you may not so you might go oh they have monthly

9:50

trainings and we only have you know quarterly but maybe their monthly topics are more of sales pitches from sponsors

9:56

and yours are actually really great educational content so you can't necessarily say oh well we offer less

10:01

here so we shouldn't charge as much for this component or the value of this bullet maybe yours is actually worth

10:08

more but I like to do a SWOT analysis there and kind of compare what what are the value propositions that are stated

10:15

um and the price difference and what are you noticing for me it's more about idea generation of oh they're doing this how

10:22

might we look at doing that or is that even a value the third step app is then

10:27

doing a value a deep value analysis with your audience I call that the voice of customer part and that's where you will

10:35

typically run a series of surveys focus groups maybe one-on-one interviews especially if you're looking more like a

10:41

sponsorship thing where you don't want them all together but things like membership events you can do focus

10:47

groups and have have people together and in the survey there are a couple things that I really

10:54

like to ask um there's uh of course always asking for name email and may we follow up uh

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the reason for that is you can then funnel them into those focus groups or interviews and you've already got Persona information on them

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um then I like to ask a couple Persona based questions maybe three to five this is especially really good if your data

11:13

is not that great to begin with so you can start figuring out okay based on these personas here's how they answered

11:20

um and then from there I ask the value questions and in general there's three big questions I like to ask

11:27

um what are we doing well that we should amplify what are we not doing well uh that we can do better or even Sunset and

11:36

um what are you getting elsewhere that we can learn from like what are we not doing that maybe we should start doing so what should we start what should we

11:43

stop and what should we amplify that's basically what I ask now you can get specific with different

11:49

bullets and all that right so how it looks varies a bit um and how long you want the survey to

11:54

be but I like to do that and then from there usually invite them into focus groups

12:00

um buy segment if you can if you've created let's say three segments then maybe run two to three focus groups per

12:05

segment you know run run a series of six to nine focus groups and say hey here's what we're seeing don't tell them your

12:12

segment just here's what we're seeing right but it is for their segment can you tell us more right that's where you

12:18

get that qualitative feedback of yeah we want monthly training instead of quarterly but not if it's going to be

12:23

salesy as an example like what what do you want uh or what topics start generating topic ideas for us what would

12:30

it look like um and then from there after that value analysis and saying okay here's how the

12:36

packaging might change the fourth step is then pricing analysis so that's where you say Okay based on these changes

12:42

we've heard you based on these changes here's what that's going to do to the price uh there's two methods there you

12:49

can do open or closed ended um open-ended is where you use typically the van West indoor model of question

12:55

and you say what is your willingness to pay for this upgraded membership

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or on the closed ended you could do open and then close or you could just jump into closed ended the close ended is

13:07

where you have a price so it might be based on the answers from the open-ended or it might just be that your board or

13:13

your staff say hey we need to raise the price to this amount um and from there you would say okay

13:19

would you get with a or b would you go with the current membership that has these features at this price or here's

13:26

the additional features you would get the upgrades at this price which would you pick and see what that migration

13:31

looks like and then the fifth step um not not that this is an easy one two three four five but then the fifth step

13:38

is communicating it so you have to communicate value you have to communicate we heard you we're making

13:43

these changes here's when they're rolling out you know in the next year you're going to see this in quarter one this and quarter three uh maybe this

13:50

last piece will come in year two and we'll do a slight price increase then to cover that and you know but we heard you

13:57

and we're excited to deliver this value so that's where or that's kind of the

14:02

five steps of what we do typically if we do a project we take about six months to do all of that uh to really take our

14:08

time and go through it methodically and and and make decisions as we go along

14:15

right right so what I can understand that in terms of the few steps like if you have to give a high level overview

14:20

of the steps itself it's mainly understanding your product what you're offering uh to your members that you

14:26

have to do your data data and Analysis and market analysis as well to understand uh what the competitor is

14:32

like and your historic data for your own Association as well and then you have to make sure that you're doing that market

14:37

testing um and then pricing and value roadmap and then the implementation part of it so in terms of all the steps that you

14:44

have mentioned it takes about five to six months in regards of your handling a project because of course it has a lot

14:50

to do um with the process itself uh one thing that you did mention is the willingness

14:57

to pay right because this is something that we have like this question is something that we have gotten from a lot

15:02

of audiences that we have so it's like how do we talk about price without talking about the price like how do you

15:09

work your questions to understand what's your members willingness to pay yes so uh so that's where I would say the quick

15:16

and easy answer is I would Google the van westendorp model that gives a good overview that's the methodology that we

15:22

use for our open-ended but I do customize it of course and I don't just use it as is but that's a good starting

15:29

point so in general the four there's four questions that you would ask you would present you know the upgrades the

15:35

new thing and uh from there you would ask a series of four open-ended questions and you allow them to fill it

15:41

in and you would say at what price point um is would this product be uh too

15:48

expensive to be considered or or out of your budget at what price point would

15:53

this be expensive or within your budget but worth considering at what price

15:58

point would this be inexpensive or maybe a no-brainer and then at what price

16:04

point would this be too cheap to that you would question the value too cheap to be a value and what you do then is

16:10

you would plot this onto a graph across all the answers so you might get you know so a couple hundred answers you

16:17

know maybe a couple thousand maybe dozens depending on the size of your organization and the percentage of people who respond and you then create

16:24

these um Windows if you will where you say okay the the overall willingness to pay is from too inexpensive to be a value to

16:32

too expensive somewhere in there but we really narrow it down typically then to the middle two which is

16:39

uh at what price point would it be a no-brainer or inexpensive at what price point would be expensive but worth

16:44

considering now we don't just ask those two we ask all four because they then typically give us a better answer for

16:51

those middle two but we can then consider okay somewhere in these two is waiting to answer now

16:57

sometimes uh those two are less than the current price sometimes it's more than

17:03

um usually it's not too wide of a uh uh uh or broad of a number answer but even

17:11

if still again you kind of average it um and figure out where that willingness

17:16

to pay is uh is there are some tactics again this is where it depends on the product and how you're positioning it

17:24

um sometimes depending on how much value is being added we'll anchor it against the current amount so we'll say okay

17:30

again like here's the current membership and the current price here's the new one and then ask so if they already have in

17:35

their head okay if I pay let's say four hundred dollars per year for my membership I know I'm getting more so I

17:42

should pay more now how much more um sometimes if it's a new product or if you're just really revamping in a way

17:48

that you you don't want to Anchor it to that then you might just show it without showing the old so the it depends how

17:54

you do it specifically but those series of questions will help you get a good

17:59

idea and again then also looking at those answers by segment so if you've created let's say three segments seeing

18:05

what those different segments might say um you may or may not price based on segment you still might have one

18:11

universal membership price you might create tiers based on segments maybe the segments are young professional versus

18:18

you know mid-career versus uh senior leader or even retirement if

18:23

you want to maintain uh some of those Emirates type members

18:28

um uh or Emeritus but it's essentially up to you whether you do tiers or not

18:34

based on personas right right but um when it comes to the tiers itself like how do you decide uh

18:41

between when to use like a flat membership or a tiered membership and how do you usually create those tiers uh

18:48

for your membership level yeah so um I'll say this first and I don't think

18:53

too many people say it but I I like it I think that it can be fun to go from uh

19:01

one type of membership to tears and back every 20 years like I think it's something fun

19:07

to play with over the life cycle of an organization not every five or ten years that's Whiplash maybe like once a

19:13

generation let's say right like once every 20 years 30 years so I think it's something fun to play with because it

19:19

gives opportunities outside of that what I would say is um you'll know if you should do tears if

19:25

you feel like you are leaving money on the table and you clearly know your segments if you're not sure if you're

19:31

not really seeing it and you feel like everyone kind of fits in you're probably okay likewise if you have tears and you

19:39

notice you know that maybe everyone's kind of going into one anyway it depends on which one it may be okay to condense

19:45

down so um some of the some of the differences that I would say

19:51

uh you know one membership type is great if you know everyone pretty much wants

19:57

the same value right like if no one's really differentiating based on value because there's two ways that you can do

20:02

tiers you can either do it based on the value delivered or you can do it based on maybe like stage of career that's

20:09

that's typically an ethical Persona based uh tier model so stage of career

20:14

again like a young professional or student member you know mid-level and then maybe a senior leader or something

20:19

like that um but if you're gonna do it based on value that's where you start saying okay maybe you know the low level membership

20:25

is uh you know you get newsletters and um discounts and things like that

20:32

but maybe you pay a la carte for certain things like webinars and Conference maybe the second level includes all the

20:38

webinars or digital trainings for the year at a bulk discounted rate you know if you do 10 a year there are 100 bucks

20:44

each but you pay 500 extra for the year and you get all them included and then maybe the third tier includes you know

20:50

again something even deeper maybe conference I don't like bundling conferencing with membership I don't

20:56

think people care for that uh that's a trend that I've seen after covid I I it could work but I think it works rarely

21:02

and I don't think that's a move so I think you have to know what people want um I do think that there's a great

21:08

opportunity to add even just one tier based on how much we've expanded digital education over the last couple of years

21:13

so that could be an option but again that's going back to Step One of looking at the data and saying okay let's say we

21:19

put on 10 per year most people only attend four so so maybe we price and uh let's

21:28

say that in total you make I'm just gonna make up numbers you make one thousand dollars a year off of all

21:34

the webinars I don't know that's a really low number and you have 1 000 members so you know that if you're just

21:40

charging each an extra Buck a year you would you wouldn't cannibalize you would break even you know or make more and

21:48

maybe if all of them per year I don't even know cost you know whatever 10

21:53

bucks maybe you go up five bucks per year again these are stupid you know numbers just to make it up and keep it

21:58

nice and round but the point is okay now instead of making you know a thousand maybe we're you know but we're spreading

22:05

it around you know we're making maybe you know more money but to them it's a no-brainer so that could be where you

22:11

can Elevate or you can force everyone into it I've had one client uh this was two years ago it was a bar a local bar

22:18

association um they offered for two years they did an elevated membership that included All

22:24

Digital trainings for the year in this similar way and but they said in two years we're sunsetting the current

22:30

membership and you have to move to it but you can move to it early and they wanted to see what percent you know

22:35

would would move and and how that would go so there's different ways to do tiered versus not I think it's fun to

22:42

play and go back and forth because I think it's a way to capture more revenue

22:47

and deliver more value and then kind of pull back and then re-establish you know maybe every few decades honestly

22:55

right right so in terms of membership tiers that's very understandable in terms of what value that you're

23:00

providing but how would you usually price because uh when it comes to an associations like they have like a lot

23:07

of prospective members as well like members coming in there are non-members who's participating in their events and

23:13

their webinars or in their resources segment so how do you how do you price members versus non-members yeah so if

23:21

you're still going to offer those things to non-members um typically what I say is have some

23:27

well it depends if it's included or not so if it's included in membership and no

23:33

member pays for it like let's say it's a you know there's only one tier of membership not multiple tiers and

23:38

therefore every member gets it then the way that I would price it for not members is I would still assign a value

23:43

of price to like as a member rate so you might say something to the effect of you

23:50

know our members you know uh even though it's included in membership maybe they

23:56

pay fifty dollars per or twenty dollars per and so this is the member rate and

24:01

then typically I recommend doing some kind of a percent markup that's one method the other is again if you look at

24:07

the data and see about how many per year does a non-member sign up for can you entice them with price anchoring to say

24:13

oh well the membership's actually worth it so in the first scenario let's say that members only sign up for one

24:19

randomly right they they are Googling they find it or they see it on LinkedIn or whatever they join that one but they

24:25

don't come to multiple throughout the year then you might say okay I remembers you know the member rate even though no

24:32

one's really paying it is you know twenty dollars to join this live training for 45 minutes or an hour so

24:38

the non-member rate is you know 39 whatever it is um

24:43

then that's it but if you notice that non-members or maybe half of non-members join

24:49

five per year and therefore let's just say 40 bucks times five that's two hundred dollars per year maybe if

24:56

membership is 300 then maybe you you know you can lay that Kate's out on the sales page as well to say you know for

25:02

this much or for whatever you get to join or do a trial membership for you know 99 or something like that you know

25:08

that's a three month trial membership and you know then you can roll that in and pay the difference whatever so again

25:13

it depends on the Nuance of how often are you offering something all that what are you price anchoring against is the

25:19

goal just to get them to attend one get their email get them on the list and then try to upsell them to more webinars

25:25

because you know that's what they're interested in and then you know using marketing sell them on to different products that you offer as well or is

25:33

your goal to try to convert them into a member as soon as possible whether it's at the sale or within 30 days using a

25:39

you know maybe an email sequence that makes the case for this um and then even in that email sequence

25:44

you could say hey the registration that you paid the 39 can go towards your membership if you sign up in the next 30 days and here's everything that you get

25:51

that could be an email or two that they get over the next month so again it depends on the goals depends on your

25:57

pricing objectives your value objectives there's different ways to do it um but in general I I either price

26:03

non-member versus member as either like a percentage markup usually not more than double uh usually not less than

26:10

like 50 percent more somewhere in there but it depends on the price of the product um because if it's like a 500 product

26:16

you might make non-member only 200 Which is less than 50 increase right you might go 500 and 700 but if it's like a 20 50

26:24

thing you might go double or close to it um so either that method or the second

26:30

method again being trying to tie it against the cost of membership and making it a no-brainer to get something

26:36

for the whole year right right and uh doing this key differentiation between a non-member and

26:42

a member actually helps you to promote your Association and have that membership growth and membership drive

26:48

as well which is an amazing strategy in the first place so getting back to the

26:53

membership tier that we were talking about uh like how do we balance

26:58

um individual membership versus organizational membership or even versus like large organizations that has like a

27:05

different number of people joining the membership from different locations yeah so I just talked with

27:11

um an organization about that this morning um where they're a trade Association but they are starting to offer more

27:18

individual things than they've added now an individual membership category that they're going to roll out and figuring out guard rails there

27:25

um I think that so I think there's different ways that you can do guard rails

27:30

one one consideration is this goes back to again step one and

27:36

looking at the data so let's say you have a big organization maybe has 10 people that actively log in or 50 people

27:42

that actively log in right and you're comparing that to an individual I would look at those 10 or 50 people and say

27:48

how often have they logged into the member portal over the last year or two how often have they each viewed uh you

27:54

know maybe webinars you know if they have to sign up for that you know just you know register for it or view it if

28:00

you can look at their activity in the member portal what have they accessed right are they looking up articles kind of what are they doing and get an idea

28:08

um when you compare that to a smaller organization because in some organizations it's nothing for them to say well we'll just get one you know

28:14

login or two logins and they become the The Source Hub if you will like you go

28:19

to them and say hey can you look and see if there's anything on this I need something about it to make a decision versus an individual who can do the same

28:26

thing um I think some of the guardrails that you can put into place would be uh one

28:31

could be that you could do it uh uh based on how many people would be logging in how many logins they get I

28:38

don't think that's always the most effective way because again they can just narrow it down to one person having a login I think other ways you can do it that

28:45

I've seen done that I've worked with clients one is you can do it try to do it based on like Revenue um you could do it based on the uh

28:52

employee size of the organization or you can even do it based on the projected number of people in that role at the

28:57

organization and to do the last two we typically look at LinkedIn so I'll go to their LinkedIn company profile and I'll

29:03

say okay this says they have you know 10 000 employees so then you start creating these bands you say okay here's our you

29:09

know 100 organization members let's try to get an idea of how many employees do they each have and then create bands or

29:16

look up how many people are in a specific role have something in their title at that organization and say okay

29:22

according to this you have I don't even know let's say 2 000 people in this type of role in in HR and will

29:32

give you access for all 2000 and even if only 100 or 200 login actively they all get access uh and make it a no-brainer

29:39

for them so if if let's just say it's 2 000 people that's a really high number probably most people listening would

29:44

even have you know that many but I'll run with that since I said it if they had 2 000 people you know only 100 might

29:50

log in per year make it a no-brainer where individual you know if you compared it maybe they're paying for the

29:58

equivalent of 150 or 200 individuals for that 2000 because you know that not all

30:03

of them are even going to make an account and have a cost in your AMS are going to be accessing the learning et cetera Etc and then start looking at

30:10

that data a year or two into doing this with all organization C if more people are logging in then you might be able to make a case for a price increase and to

30:17

say you're getting this value and that's a great thing um but the reality is you know like in an Ams for example you're typically

30:23

paying maybe 2 bucks per person per year the same for an LMS to have their

30:28

account there it doesn't cost you that much so you know kind of figure that out make sure that you're doing it from a

30:34

wise perspective but uh you know then the other benefits of that is by having more people that helps with sponsor

30:40

dollars the more that log in that helps with sponsor dollars right because if sponsors are paying for visibility for

30:47

maybe the webinar is like hey brought to you by you know you can say hey yeah we you know we've got all these new members

30:52

now and they're look are they looking at it are they logging in ETC so then your money can go up all around in different

30:59

ways right right yeah and then as you mentioned about like

31:04

um different like members has different role like when it comes to a similar industry right and this is one question

31:12

that we have been receiving with from few different audiences as well is that uh a lot of associations has a diverse

31:18

membership like diverse membership in terms of like let's say manufacturers wholesalers and contractors coming in

31:24

and each group is receiving like different values from the association itself so what would you suggest the

31:30

membership pricing model should be for such Association to Define each tier yeah that that is what I would recommend

31:37

that each of those segments has a different more than likely has a

31:42

different membership um so it's not even necessarily a tier it's more of a category and so I would

31:48

recommend now this is where I might keep it simple it's so it depends if let's

31:53

say hypothetically right now you have one type of membership in all these different categories are paying for the same thing hopefully that's not the case

32:00

but let's just say that is my first step would probably be have one tier of membership per category but start

32:06

breaking them out so figure out what do each of them need I've done that as well I worked with one org that did uh uh

32:13

like retail basically and they did have similar categories to this that had very different needs and very different

32:19

budgets um uh you know retail had way bigger budget than you know maybe Distributors

32:25

and manufacturers so from there you figure out what is the value that you need you you have to talk usually to

32:30

whoever the key account holder is at that organization the decision maker and say what is the value that you need from

32:37

our organization is it is it training and if so on what topics um is it a certification is it that

32:43

we're giving you a a seal of approval on your processes or how green you are with

32:49

your processes or something like that right um so what is it specifically that you

32:54

need from us as your Association and then how can we deliver that and then you can compare where's the value

33:00

similar where is it different what is the budget what is the willingness to pay of each segment type maybe even each

33:06

segment type based on again Revenue two per year um that's what this one in particular

33:11

this was uh uh maybe two years ago this one retail type Association did they

33:17

said okay we've got you know maybe three or four different categories you fit into one but then from there based on your annual

33:23

revenue that determines how much you pay and it was a open organizational membership so then anyone can log in and

33:30

have access to the digital assets but it was based on your annual revenue so

33:35

there's again different ways to do it you could do it by number of logins um even if they're multi-site

33:42

I mean I've had organizations where of course you have uh maybe a multi-site member who's not only multi-site within

33:49

one country but across multiple countries um even then I would say you mostly have to price I would say based on your

33:55

primary country you might differentiate based on their countries but you might say this is how we price this is where

34:02

we're located or based on where your headquarters is or something to that effect that's getting a bit more complex

34:07

with like International pricing um but but I would I would have those different categories and then decide you

34:13

just have one this is what it is uh again when you talk to them you'll find out is it basically one department or a

34:21

couple people that are logging in and that's it if so you can probably just have one tier for that category or does

34:27

it vary if you have let's say again I'm going to just use retail as an example if you have a member like Amazon or

34:34

Walmart they probably have way more people logging in than a boutique you

34:39

know that maybe has five locations and the willingness to pay is going to be very very different because the value

34:45

that they get and how much they access it is very very different uh so those

34:50

are all considerations that that I would I would I would be looking at okay okay and um like in terms of a like

34:59

an association point of view right how do you quantify organizational membership Roi like setting up price

35:06

because you know your cost of goods solds you know uh like how much is your

35:11

value added as an association with the step and overhead so how are you going to quantify the organizational

35:17

membership Roi yeah so organizational Roi is a little

35:22

bit harder um I have a video on the website where I kind of gave some examples of what it could look like

35:28

um but in general oh I would say that uh again I would

35:34

look at the data of what are they typically accessing and can you put some kind of a price for the value of those

35:40

individual components um I think that you can also this is where like marketing Go I mean pricing

35:46

and value are part of marketing but when we typically think of marketing marketing we think of like the storytelling and digital and print

35:53

assets right so this is where that General thought of marketing can come in

35:58

which is gathering those uh qualitative stories as well to increase the value so

36:04

things like being able to quickly find an answer for your boss so that you look you know competent in front of them and

36:09

you're getting them the most realistic uh knowledge quickly that's something that's of value to an organizational

36:15

membership to me whether you know even though it's the individual logging in um things like lobbying that's something

36:21

that you know if your organization lobbies and and has had a win in the last few years that's something that you

36:27

can speak to like hey we you know we know that we did this and we had this impact in your company because we see

36:32

your you know maybe your records or we saw it in the news you know you benefited this much now that doesn't mean that we charge you for that you

36:39

know dollar for dollar but you have a real benefit over years of being a member with us

36:44

um so it is a little bit harder but I I like to start with

36:49

um I don't start with like the cost of goods sold I think we should know that we should know all of our finances and

36:54

accounting but I typically like to say okay here are the tangible things that you're getting whether it's

37:00

um you know conference registrations again you know access to certain materials whatever it is put a dollar

37:05

value on that and then add the premium for the qualitative value that they receive of uh of ease you know efforts

37:14

uh things like that so it's it's a little bit more complex

37:21

um and again this is where the pricing analysis comes in to ask what is their willingness to pay and determine what

37:27

they say the other thing that's interesting is when you're doing the open-ended willingness to pay questions

37:34

um when you're doing an individual membership you're getting from the individual what they're willing to pay when you're asking though an individual

37:40

to complete a survey and it's an organizational membership sometimes people are afraid of well what if they

37:47

overstate or understate what the organization is actually willing to pay and what I say to that is typically

37:53

they're going to understate it a little bit but that person is also typically the advocate for your for your

37:59

Association to continue to be a member for them to be a member of because they're the ones opening the emails

38:05

they're the ones maybe submitting you know for um you know for payment right

38:11

um they're the ones that if a county comes back and says you know oh this this went up last year we only paid this

38:16

much for the membership it went up why they're the ones that can say well here's what they've added in or or we've

38:22

added five new seats or whatever the case is right so to me that individual

38:27

you can still ask about willingness to pay through a survey and again that's

38:32

wrapping the different segmentation so it might be are you a distributor or manufacturer uh uh a retailer what what

38:39

are you and what size is your organization or what revenues here or whatever and then what is your

38:45

willingness to pay that's where all this kind of comes together into you know one clear methodology

38:51

right right and while you were talking about the willingness to pay and like the whole process of finding the True

38:57

Value uh that someone should charge for their membership itself like you did mention about like uh don't you say that

39:04

it's it shouldn't be the important topic of discussion but you you did mention about understanding your competition

39:09

right so how do you manage competition that is you see a larger association with more benefits to offer for the same

39:16

cost how do you manage that competition so it depends on who the competition is

39:22

um if the competition this is this has been an issue I think for the last three

39:28

years if the competition is your organization's National right like org

39:34

so what I mean by that is if you are maybe a state or local and they're the national they are a competitor if you're

39:41

not intertwined through bylaws where maybe they funnel money down or you funnel money up because they're doing

39:47

things separate from you and they are competing for the same audience the same membership the same attendance at events

39:54

all of that right so that's one angle the other angle is if they're not affiliated with you at

39:59

all they just happen to be a bigger organization or maybe you're more us-based they're more European based or

40:04

Asia Market or Africa whatever the case is right so there there I would say

40:09

there's first those two nuances of are they a part of your organization even if

40:15

maybe not you know through bylaw but they're the national you're the local or are they completely separate if they are

40:22

a part of your organization for lack of a better term whether it's bylaw you know constitutionally bound or not but

40:27

but they're the national you're the local I think that's where a coalition of the

40:33

locals coming together and having a clear voice with the bigger organization is needed

40:39

um I saw that a lot during covid that the bigger organization across many Industries I saw this where state and

40:45

local were saying we can't compete they're offering better programming they've got better speakers in their back pocket uh they have a bigger email

40:51

list so they can afford to do the same you know virtual training is not that expensive they can afford to do it for

40:58

half of what we do because they're getting four times the registrants and they're still making more I think that the big orgs need to be

41:05

cognizant of that if they have state locals I think you need a partner or maybe say Hey you each get a link and if

41:12

they sign up and say they're from the state you get a you know whatever 20 Kickback or something there has to be

41:17

something there it's that's a hard one that is a hard one I think if they are not affiliated

41:22

at all then you've got to hone in on what makes you special there's got to be I would

41:27

say there should be something different about you from them so is it that they are

41:33

um more of a generalist for your field so again whether it's marketing right like maybe it's AMA but you focus

41:41

specifically specifically on digital marketing as an association right or

41:46

copywriting or whatever or maybe it's you know Sherm or something like general you know HR but you focus on recruiting

41:53

as an association I'm just making this up there probably are smaller organs that do this that I'm just you know not aware of and haven't worked with yet but

42:00

then you need to hone in on that superpower and that you're getting the best training specifically on this or you're getting the best resources

42:06

specifically on this and so it should complement it shouldn't necessarily be are you a member of this or that it

42:12

should be that you're delivering consistently such specific value but you also this is just business model then

42:18

you also have to know that not everyone who's in marketing or in HR is your audience it's these species specific

42:24

people in these roles who do copywriting or who do again recruiting or whatever

42:29

the whatever that Niche is so you need to have that ready to go or if it's uh

42:34

location based I brought up earlier if you're let's say you're more Asia based and they're more us-based you know then

42:41

don't worry about trying to have your digital offerings and times that meet the other audience as well to try to

42:47

capture that market focus on your Market focus on what are the needs that they have specifically what's coming up in

42:53

that region so focus on what makes you special lean into that know what the the

42:58

the audience size is and then create a business model for that you may not be as big as the big guy then that's not

43:04

your goal it's not the market share that's there so be the best you know you may not be

43:10

the 50 person association with the same number of members you might be the five

43:15

person Association you know with the small but but you can still balance the budget and serve your audience well and

43:21

that's fantastic and you can create coalitions again or or do trainings or whatever Partnerships for the bigger

43:27

organization if you you know play nice great then they might say oh yeah we're

43:33

partnering with them on this you know training series or a workshop or whatever specific to this Niche so

43:39

that's my take on it I I think everyone can have a seat at the table I think the world is big enough

43:45

um but I think you have to know your your Market size and just play Within that and figure out how do we all play

43:50

together and then if they won't play nicely how do you sustain yourself as a business you know I mean we live in a

43:56

world where again there's Mark there's Walmart there's Target but then there's still the smaller you know box stores as

44:02

well everyone can fit in there's enough space but how do you do it with a business mind to know your audience

44:09

right right and you did you did mention about the like building that pricing strategy understanding your value

44:15

proposition right and then building that pricing strategy or if you have to raise your prices as well so the first thing

44:21

that comes up is how do you convince others in your organization like within your Association that raising price is

44:29

the best thing to do at the moment yeah so um okay I have a Blog on this as well that I would recommend because it goes

44:35

into greater detail but the impact that pricing has is absurd

44:41

um and we wouldn't think that we would think we have to raise the price by a lot but most organizations if you look

44:47

at your 990 if the more nuclear that you can get you know if if you can get down

44:52

to byproduct type great but if you can't even just as an organization look at your Revenue in versus expenses and

44:58

figure out what is your you know profit margin as a whole organization if you can't get any deeper and go well

45:03

membership has this cost of goods versus this Revenue it most organizations are about 30 give

45:10

or take now again it can vary digital products you know have a bigger you know profit margin than like an in-person

45:16

event it all varies but in general I usually go up about 30 and that tends to be pretty accurate so if you've got I'll

45:23

give you the quick version of that blog if you've got a 100 product and 30 profit margin so you're at you know

45:29

you're you're spending 70 bucks you're making 30 bucks if you discounted

45:35

because we love to Discount we don't like to raise price if you discounted you're not going to Discount by just five percent you're typically going to

45:41

do a 10 20 25 discount maybe even more but if you did a 10 discount let's go

45:47

conservative that means you're losing 10 bucks so now your profit margin went from thirty dollars to twenty because

45:52

you still have to spend the seventy dollars your your cost didn't go down by 10 percent you know it doesn't all go down it comes out of your profit so now

45:59

your profit margin went from 30 to 20 that's a huge hit and it's that 10 discount really gonna make a big

46:05

difference and now if you went from 30 to 20 bucks you need to increase your sales by 50 percent to make the same

46:12

amount of money is offering a 10 discount going to raise your sales by fifty percent no but on the flip side if

46:19

you go from 100 bucks to 103 that's that's only a three percent price increase but it's actually a ten percent

46:24

for your profitability because now you go from Thirty to thirty three dollars if you had a ten percent addition in

46:30

your bottom line by only going up three percent in the top that makes a big difference right so you don't have to

46:36

move the needle a whole lot every year to see a big impact so if your organization again is charging even a

46:41

hundred bucks and you say we're going to 105. most people won't blink at that they might say okay now it's you know 105 or 110 a year for the membership but

46:49

again if you went to 110 your bottom line just went up from 30 to 40 bucks you just went up one third how much more

46:55

can you do if you had a third more in your bottom line how much more can you reinvest because that's our purpose as

47:01

an association as a non-profit is to reinvest that into Staffing technology resources all of that so first of all

47:10

I'd like to show that math because most people don't get that they think you need to raise the price from 100 to 150

47:15

to see a big difference and you don't and they think you can discount and it won't have a big impact and it does so I

47:21

like to do that first so that's a Blog on the website you can literally just like send it to someone

47:27

um but second then what I like to do is then focus on the value and say okay but here's the value that we're adding in

47:32

and again let's just say we're only adding in one digital training a year that's normally 50 bucks and now you pay

47:38

110 and everybody gets it that's a no-brainer you're paying ten dollars extra for 50 training and if 80 90 of

47:45

your people want it but maybe they don't buy it so you got to look at the Historical who buys it but maybe they

47:50

want it and they would and may a lot of organizations will say oh I just don't like to you know maybe their accounting

47:57

team doesn't want you doing a bunch of purchases throughout the year they want like one purchase they want a budget

48:02

they want to know if you include it in a membership it might be a no-brainer they might say yeah we'll send this and you

48:09

get it and again and then it goes up so I start with that pricing with the math to show them the impact of discounting

48:15

and price increase and how how it impacts with just a little bit of movement um and then number two then I go into

48:22

the value and say Here's what we're doing now would you pay this much extra to get these things

48:28

if you would then what then what are we doing um you'll still have organizations that

48:33

fight you on it that's to me the last effort is when you bring in an outside consultant because they listen to us we

48:39

all know that it's not a pitch for me it's a that's the case with anything they will listen to other people more

48:44

than they will listen to you it's it's like your own you know children nieces nephews if you have little people around

48:50

you in life you know we we always see people as who they are and keep them in a box and sometimes we need to hear it

48:55

from somebody else who we don't have any bias we don't you know we receive with with fresh eyes and we go oh that makes

49:02

sense so that's a last-ditch effort but DIY in-house uh again there's a there

49:08

there's a Blog on our website about the impact of discounting pull that blog and then sell the value

49:15

right yeah and it's um it's understandable like when you're doing your value proposition and increasing

49:21

your price and if you're able to show the map it's it's kind of easier to convince

49:26

um your associations and your team but when it comes to like a lot of associations like post pandemic due to

49:33

inflation and post pandemic they have increased their fees how do you communicate these changes to your

49:39

members yeah okay so uh I've got a Hot Topic here that most people might shake their

49:45

head on is what it is I'm allowed to have my own expert opinion and then you can have yours too I don't believe in

49:51

raising prices just because of inflation I get that our costs have gone up I'm not saying that we shouldn't consider

49:57

that but I would almost address that part first it is what it is if you've already raised them you have to Value

50:04

communicate but that's the problem if you raise them based on inflation then what you're saying is our costs have gone up so yours goes up it's just a

50:10

domino effect the better way is to say we've added this value and the prices are going up

50:17

you can include inflation in that and say because you know we've increased the value and inflation's hitting us a

50:22

little bit just like it's hitting everybody but here's the value the value that you're getting if my think about it

50:28

if Netflix will keep it real simple like a b2c example Netflix raises my price just about every year right Disney plus

50:34

just did Hulu has all those streamers have they raise it by like a dollar I don't

50:40

really care but that's a big again think about that example I just gave if I only pay I think I paid 20 bucks a month now

50:45

for Netflix I used to pay seven or eight dollars they and and their costs have gone up I'm sure right but they have

50:52

more members it's spread out it's a digital product their profitability has gone through the roof because of that right

50:58

if they say we're raising it by a dollar a month because of inflation I'm gonna say well what the heck like my salary is

51:05

not going up because of inflation but all my costs are and then you start considering should I keep you or not

51:10

because you're going up because of inflation but if they say we've added this programming and I think it really

51:17

specific and segment me and say we notice that you like to watch comedies and we've added these 20 comedy specials

51:22

in the last year and we plan on adding more comedy specials and we're going up by a dollar a month to continue to bring

51:28

you that programming I'm more likely to say okay I hate going up a dollar a month but that's worth it to keep you

51:34

know how much would I spend that's less than a movie ticket one per year 12 bucks a year right that's worth it if I'm getting to watch

51:41

five different comedy specials out of the maybe 20 that they added I might only like five but that's worth it right

51:47

so I don't like leading with inflation because the other thing is are you going to decrease your price when prices go

51:53

down so when covet happened did you go down maybe you did as a response because you thought people couldn't afford it

51:59

and you offered a temporary discount but unless you permanently made a change and said hey everyone's at home and saving

52:04

money so we're we're going down permanently unless you're going to increase and decrease based on the

52:11

economy do not increase because of inflation the other thing is when you look at the inflation costs

52:17

um this is actually a video I'm going to record in the next couple weeks I have a Graphic on it but you know overall I

52:22

think inflation's what like nine percent up right something like that um over the last year it's probably changed in the

52:28

last quarter so who knows but as of last year we were hitting about 9.1 I think

52:34

40 of you know 40 increase 30 increase is mostly oil and Airline they're the

52:40

main ones that had increases they had about a 30 40 percent the average is 9.1 education which is what a lot of us do

52:46

was only like a one or two percent increase so now fuel costs impact us when we are traveling to events and all

52:54

that right don't get me wrong but that might mean that your event price went up but did your cost to deliver a digital

53:00

education seminar go up 40 or 10 no so you have to really consider what are

53:07

you trying to do what is the value that you provide and communicate the value okay so that's my hot take on that I

53:14

don't believe in just increasing because of inflation I think but I think you have to consider that you have to check

53:19

your bottom line of course but I think you need a price based on the value and communicate the value and

53:26

then again part of that might be inflation's hitting us like it's hitting everybody else but we're adding in these

53:31

value components that we know that you care about and that's why you know we're going up to this to cover the cost of

53:37

this additional value that you've asked for right and um yeah as I have mentioned

53:43

like for an example you gave uh Netflix as an example like they're increasing their monthly

53:48

um like monthly fees or even like let's say in two months or three months and less than how an association wants

53:54

to increase their pricing overall would you suggest to increase the pricing like and on an annual basis or like in small

54:02

increments yeah that's a great question in general I always ask this question whenever I started trading in person

54:08

I'll say Okay raise your hand uh if it's if you raise your price in the last three years I usually say about three or

54:15

five years then I'll say okay like five to ten years and then I'll say more than 10 years or 20 years and you'll still have people raising their hand not most

54:22

associations kind of leave their pricing alone for a while and then they go wait wait we haven't raised the price and then they just try to and that's not the

54:28

way to do it what I this is generalized but what I recommend is an annual if not

54:34

every other year uh uh adjustment and that should be like a routine so

54:40

again this is generalized this is not specific for any one organization that's listening

54:45

but you might do like a three percent a five percent or if it's every other year you might do a five or maybe even a ten

54:51

percent something like that and again it depends on what the starting price is and all that right

54:57

from there though that's what the kind of work that we do like a deep value analysis and repackaging and then

55:03

pricing based on that repackage I recommend doing that about every three to five years so it might be that every

55:09

three to five years you really adjust the package and you say okay now webinars are out you said that you know

55:14

monthly webinars felt more like sales pitches you want more Deep dive education but we can only pull that off every other month or once a quarter so

55:21

we're gonna have a deep dive and it's gonna be really good quality so we're doing this and you know however you're

55:27

shifting things around right and then you adjust the price but then in between that you shouldn't wait three

55:33

to five years to change the price again you should do like Little Steps so how much again it all depends but that's

55:39

where you might do those little steps so so typically when we work with a client we make a three to five year plan and

55:44

say Here's like the big thing you're doing and then here's the incremental and then we'll see you again in three to five years so I think you should

55:51

normalize though price increases so that it's a psych thing right people get used to it and then they don't question oh my

55:57

price went up it's like okay yeah it goes up from time to time but the value is consistent and I love the

56:03

organization so that's my recommendation right right yeah and then uh like Lithia Association

56:10

has already increased and raised their membership fees right so it's about communicating to the

56:17

members how would you deal with objections if like some members or maybe an individual or business are not

56:23

willing to pay the increased fees yeah so okay here is something I say to every

56:29

client in our kickoff meeting in our first meeting when I'm meeting with their team that I'm working with one question I ask and I give them about

56:35

five or ten minutes to answer this question it's not a quick one I say what is your pricing objective and here's

56:42

what I mean by that is your goal to serve as many people as possible no matter the profitability

56:48

is your goal to be as profitable as possible and you might not serve as many people or is it somewhere in the middle

56:54

usually it's somewhere in the middle and here's what I mean by that let's say you have a thousand members and you're at your current price and because there's

57:01

no right or wrong answer with pricing it's great marketing is great right some things work better than others but

57:07

there's always a lot of options of how you can get somewhere what I say is okay if you're at a

57:13

thousand members are you okay losing 50 and going to 950 but your overall bottom

57:19

line goes up by whatever percent and you're getting better quality to those 950 or are you willing to go down to 800

57:26

and it still goes up and you're serving them even better they might say ah 950 feels okay like are you willing to lose

57:31

some members so not everyone's going to buy in not everyone is going to buy in and you always lose members every year

57:38

right no one even if overall you're having a net gain you lose some people you gain more than you lost having that

57:44

gain but every person's not staying with your organization in perpetuity until they retire so you know you you have to

57:50

be okay with losing some people you have to know how much of your mission as an

57:56

organization is to serve the most amount of people no matter what versus serving the right people well and only you can

58:02

answer that and that's why I let them sit with it because it's interesting they think they talk they all have different answers the Ed will have a

58:08

different answer from the marketing director and the education director or or or or you know event person and all

58:14

that and I let them talk through and I go okay so this is where we're comfortable in general we don't know where we're going to land we don't know

58:19

that we're going to lose people or not but this is this is where this is where your you stand as the decision maker for

58:26

your organization that's an important thing to Grapple with is what is your pricing objective

58:32

again there are organizations I can go to a steakhouse my favorite Steakhouse will spend 400 on dinner for two easily

58:38

I could spend 600 on dinner for two or I can go buy my own steak and cook it or I can go to the cheap place and you know

58:44

get two steaks and dinner at Texas Roadhouse for 60 bucks there's a market for everybody it's who do you want to

58:51

serve what makes the most impact but impact isn't always about the number of members it's about the quality as well

58:57

and balancing the value versus uh the value Impact versus the numerical impact

59:04

sometimes you also have those zombie members and they don't care or you know and they leave but were they even

59:10

logging in anything anyway were they making an impact were they volunteering or were they and again it doesn't mean

59:16

that you don't want them to be a member I'm not saying that I'm saying that there's a case either way and you have to decide that

59:22

right right we're almost at to a time uh so I really wanted to know what is your

59:27

biggest prediction like what should be our biggest prediction for Association pricing and value strategy in 2023

59:34

yeah I'm gonna Echo what I said at the beginning I think we have to do value analysis I think most organizations

59:39

again responded and now they're kind of just doing what they did and it's not the same Marketplace it's not the same

59:46

landscape and I think that as chat GPT grows AI it's not just Google Search now

59:51

that you have to compete with there's AI based searching people can get the information the knowledge that your

59:57

organization brings from anywhere and the lobby work that you do impacts the the field whether or not they're a

1:00:03

member so you have to figure out what value do they want from you how do you become the organization of choice that

1:00:10

is providing them with what they need and you have to talk to them to do that and then you have to do that work you

1:00:16

have to change you have to say that might mean changing our staffing model you might need a coordinator to uh

1:00:22

manage the community because they want more of a virtual community aspect therefore you might have to increase the

1:00:27

price to pay for this new you know fifty thousand dollar a year salary plus benefits but you might not need this

1:00:33

other thing or how can upskill that employee to change so change is happening are you going to keep up are

1:00:39

you not are you going to deliver the value are you not don't worry about price first worry about the value the

1:00:45

the solution that you're giving to your audience and then you price and then you have a profitable business and we can do

1:00:52

that but my biggest prediction is we're going to have to figure out the value I think if orgs skate by that for another

1:00:57

year or two it's going to be a big big problem long term for for them for those that don't do the work

1:01:03

right right and uh on that on that point like what would be your biggest key

1:01:08

takeaway uh for our audiences today um outside of doing value analysis

1:01:15

um I would say have a method to how you do value and pricing um there are methods out there I know

1:01:21

it's not a topic we talk about a lot it's not in any I'm in a whole Library you can't see it but I'm in a whole Library here in my office you know

1:01:28

pricing is not talked about enough in our membership books and our CAE study materials it's usually like a page right

1:01:35

like we and we say value but there's no method to the value so research again

1:01:40

I'm not plugging but our blog's a really great resource but just look up pricing and value in general and then apply it

1:01:45

to your Association there are methodologies so don't just use them as buzzwords figure out a plan and execute

1:01:52

it so that you're doing this well awesome yeah thank you so much for sharing all those insightful uh answers

1:02:00

to all the questions that our audiences asked and from our end as well and uh thank you everyone for joining our

1:02:06

podcast today I hope everybody found it insightful as well and hope to see everyone on our next podcast event

1:02:13

thank you everyone yeah thank you Michael thank you

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